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PLEASE HELP!! bad experience with NEW sbt 657

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  • PLEASE HELP!! bad experience with NEW sbt 657

    I have recently ordered an SBT 657 reman after some time of reading and asking alot of questions about these engines. I was told by a few that SBT was poor quality but I am the type of man that gives a fair chance. I took the plunge.I recieved the engine and payed a friend of mine who is a technician at a local marina to help me install it with all new gaskets we double checked all cooling lines from microphiche from hlsm.com. We also did the same for oil lines instead of using block off kit I just took the gear out of the oil pump and went premix. I aligned the engine with a tool a friend had, he told me it wasn't really necesarry on those but I did it anyway. Its first trip to the water I noticed a high pitch whine like everything was real tight in the engine;so thats what I thought{engine was new}. after about half way through the second tank of gas the whining stopped. I wasn't even through break in about 12 gallons of gas when the buzzer went off and the engine stopped I restarted the engine, it dragged a litttle but started and quickly stoped again like it ceased. The engine is not ceased but i can turn the pto with my hand with the plugs in. (( NO COMPRESSION )) NOW for the intresting part I called SBT technical support those guys never answer any questions they just ASK but besides that I and the tech quickly decided the engine was NO GOOD from the beginning. He then put me though to warranty (Stephanie) I told the lady what was up and she told me I would have to pay shipping for return and they would ship a new engine back. I don't know about you but to me that it is bull**** they sent me a bad product (( NOT MY FAULT)). They should absorb all cost. I am not a vulgar man just honest. Im out time and money installing a crap motor. Sorry if the word offends but ist blunt. They should stand behind their product they could easily look at shipping dates and see how long I have had the engine. I even told the lady to pay shipping to them and inspect the engine first to see I am truthful and if the engine is ok I will pay shipping for the new engine. When they see the engine is no good they at least should give me a credit toward SBT product or SOMETHING. I was out alot of money on installation and now removal and soon another insalltion. Maybe I have had bad luck with my first time dealing with SBT but after the warnings from shops and techs THIS SURE WILL LEAVE A BAD TASTE IN MY MOUTH. Now SBT you should make up your mistakes and bad workmanship and compensate those who are truly out alot of money intrusting in your product!((WHEN AND IF YOU ARE IN THE WRONG AND YOUR PRODUCT WAS FAULTY))the engine isn't even out of break in. I will be willing to talk AND listen and go over everthing with a fine tooth comb, Just to make sure I did everything correct. Now if you are reading this take it for what you will when you purchase an SBT ENGINE. I will be glad to share my experience with ANYONE the good and the bad. Just email me or PM me anytime . Thanks Jeburbank!!! ps - I did post this in a different section of the forum and left a few things out so this post is to clarify detail.

  • #2
    This Makes It Worse!!!!!!

    I just posted my experience with SBT warranty support this morning. The people at SBT finaly agreed to email me a shipping lable to send the defective engine back. After alot of arguing, when trying to explain this was a new engine not even two tanks of gas through it, not out of break in, and not half throttle yet. They should be responsible for a bad engine and that I should not have to pay $50 - $100 on shipping for a bum engine "this should not be luck of the draw on getting a quality engine" do you agree?? The lady's quote verbatim was "what is this a nogotion party? we sent you our warranty policy with the engine and it says you are responsible for the return." To my avail they agreed to email me a lable. ---BUT--- here is where it SUCKS!!!! When I bought the engine it was GREAT it took a minimal of three days to get to me BAM in a flash!! They were proud to sale me $1300. of merchandise. yep! but now I asked about when will I recieve my replacement ..... the answer --IN-- About two weeks! After we revieve your claim IE engine. If you read the warranty it states it there too. Now please please tell me if I am wrong here but am I not more important now that I have dropped all this money and put faith in to there product??? Which if you read their articles and posts they say their engines match or EXCEED manufacture specs. Therfore we should all have high expectations RIGHT?? Not two tanks of gas and then a $50 - $100 return fee for shipping. I recieved my newly purchased engine in three days!! When I send the old one back, why can't I receive another one just as fast!!! It is------((((((((A FAULT FREE WARRANTY))))))))))) Right??? But, they already have my money now so I guess I am not as important as the money they are about to recieve from people purchasing new engines. when you recieve and sign for the package they debit the account!!! MY ENGINE IS WARRANTY so I can wait RIGHT!!!! The fourth of july celebration is coming up and my family and I always go to the river for the local fireworks and celebration. we were planning on having our ski's and having a really good time. Well, I guess I can kiss that goodbye. Not if sbt would do the right thing and send my new engine out as soon as they get the return like they should do. well I guess I still have to really waste a tank or two of gas just breaking another engine in, plus my extra cost of getting my tech friend to help install this one. In short this all really really really really sucks. so again to you all if sounds to good to be true IT IS!!!! So again use your best judgement do not be influenced by dollar signs and promises of a good or great warranty. there are maybe three to four months of good riding time for most of us that are not in cali or florida climate zones so keep it in mind when you are held back by installation removal and time in shipping. Most of us deal with this on weekends when not at work. YOU do the math!! remeber one year warranty maybe two if you drop the cash. So really there not out but a few months of sweating you tearing you stuff up.
    Last edited by Technical Support; 07-17-2007, 10:18 AM.

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    • #3
      PLEASE HELP!! bad experience with NEW sbt 657

      Well you all may have read my post about this experience. I am going to explain how a tech friend of mine and I installed a 657 rotax in a 94 gtx and after few hours crapped out. Please detail what may have went wrong to cause this type or sever trashing of motor.
      I recieved my shortblock and decided to go premix so we oppted to take the gear off the oil pump instead of buying the kit so no linkage is hooked up to the injector. second we installed rotory valve timed it to 147 with front cylinder at top dead center the rotary valve was maybe off 1/16th of an inch from the mark so far so good right. Then we installed the intake and exhaust manifolds. I put the stator and flywheel on and torqued everthing to spec according to sbt installation guide. We then put the engine in the ski and aligned it nearly perfect. backup to say we used pwc oil to lube the rotary valve so it would not have friction on start up. I then rebuild both mikuni super bn carbs and installed so far so fine. I set the carbs on the low side to 1 and 1/4th turns out and High to 0 turns out according to sbt. I think my highs were about 1/2 out before rebuil but sbt says 0. I also rebuild
      the jet pump with kit from sbt and used seadoo jet pump oil. Brand new wear ring. I went to hlsm to get details on cooling and oil lines we hooked everthing up accordingly. I would be happy to send pics. we made sure all lines were blown out and no stopage. I used super tech oil that I have always used in my ski and lasted for more than four seasons running it. It is ashless and compatible with tcw tcw2 and 3 . I cleaned the oil tank and filled to full. To be safe I premixed the oil 20:1 for breakin for the first tank of gas then 40:1 for the second. Its first trip to the water it ran fine a little twitchy at idle but I figured rich on oil and needed to be tuned. At instant I noticed a high pitch whine to the engine when riding it. I figured it was just new and it would wear in. I know sbt uses all metal bearings. I never got close to half throttle on the first tank and never held in one spot more than 3 or 4 seconds. The first day it was fine all except the water comming out the rear tube was really really hot the motor was warm to the touch but cold when hooked up to the water hose. I would ride 30 min and let cool all through the first tank. The second day I babied it again doing the same maybe got to half throttle maybe once if that. This is starting on second tank. The whine started sounding like a loose belt on a car then stopped . About 1 hour riding it lost power the buzzer come on slowly and then the ski died. we cranked it back up and it quickly died again like it ceased. the buzzer whaling now. Although it did not cease. I can turn the pto with my hand like there is no compression. To me it sounds like a bad bearing but why no compression unless the heat from getting hot trashed the rings? What about the whine? I am going to inspect the bearings going through the hull but I really went over all this on installation all looked new. we regreased every thing. I am going to look at the jetpump too but there is no friction when I turn the shaft. I haven't inspected the oil in the jetpump but I will do that too. What really bites is that sbt really gave me a hard time about it all. we nearly had to fight over the shipping fees. FAULTY PRODUCT. or am I wrong did I do something wrong. My friend being in the marine repair business
      for 23 years and I could not think of one thing that is wrong. PLEASE reply and give me any and all varibles for this because I do not want to deal with SBT warranty again and be out money paying to install and remove plus shipping. I could have just bought an engine from seadoo for what all I am going to be out. PLEASE let me know how we can acheive a for professional installtion for a fault free engine to last.
      Last edited by Technical Support; 07-17-2007, 10:19 AM.

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      • #4
        Re: 1994 Seadoo XP HELP!

        Listen dude I know it is hard to get alot of the jerks on forums to answer so I will give you my opinion for what it is worth I don't know up to you! For all the critics << well you know!! If what your saying is that when you start it it idles then revs up high it sounds like you are not getting enough fuel it fills the carb then when started quickly drains the carb leaving you with the high rev. check your lines and filters another alternative is your needle arm or lever improperly set make it level with the the edges of the carb surrounding the lever you really should check pop off pressure but this will suffice. I would look up the high and low screw settings and set them just to get started. I know you are prob not a dumy so make sure your idle screw is not set to far in. assuming you did take it all apart to clean it and all orfices are clean. Other than that if you installed all the plastic reeds check valves and diaphrams correct and all your gaskets then you are good to go . ps be sure some of those kits come with a couple different gaskets with reeds so be careful to use the right one. another is some kits don't come with needle or seat like sbt's kits. at hlsm.com the have a diagram that shows correct order.I hope that maybe this could get you on the trail of the prob sometimes all you need is a nudge to go OH YEAH NOW I KNOW!!! lol Oh yeah check to make sure your not sucking air to make the fuel mixture super lean.

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        • #5
          Re: PLEASE HELP!! bad experience with NEW sbt 657

          If you did everything you said, sounds like SBT needs to step up, question is will they. i would be very interested to hear the outcome. you probably would have been better off buying a new motor. you just never know who is building these motor's.....

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          • #6
            Re: PLEASE HELP!! bad experience with NEW sbt 657

            Trust me I will keep everyone posted on every aspect of my experience with sbt good and bad. the good thing is I live in alabama close enough to florida to take a trip if I have to. I just hope sbt steps up to the plate and honors there product and make it right with me. I am an honest man I hope they can be honest too.

            Comment


            • #7
              buyer beware

              Don't buy anything from sbt as you all read before with the engine ordeal and the crappy warranty customer service. Sbt will not stand behind any of there product. Bearings forget it I bought a $50 set of jetpump bearings and they were bad screwed my whole pump and they would not even replace the bearings keep in mind the cost to you and me is $50 to them maybe $20 Instead of losing a customer and risk me telling everyone else about the bearings and my ordeal they decide to tell me I am sorry you feel this way and no we will not replace them we only garantee them to be good when you get them. So you want to take a chance. Don't do it. It is like roullette you may come out ok then again if you don't then forget about customer service there is none. Like this post will be deleted in less than a day and all you will read is these unreal post that are probably wrote by employees well I got news for you sbt I will tell everyone in my area who I meet who rides skis about your crappy customer service and your crap product. I will run an article in the courier journal that reaches over 40000 people about you and your service to me and your products. You ask why I bought it all? I bought it all at one time to refurbish my ski. I beg you don't buy from sbt dont take it from me do yourself a favor ask anyone who has bought from sbt. The answer will be the same. Once you get it its yours.
              Crap or not!!!!!!!!!!!!! SBT I WILL KEEP WRITING THESE POSTS UNTIL YOU BAND ME THEN I WILL TELL EVERYONE AT OTHER FORUMS. ALL THIS OVER CUSTOMER SERVICE YOU SHOULD JUST STAND BEHIND YOUR PRODUCT AND BE AT LEAST HALF WAY NICE WHILE DOING IT. JUST A $50 SET OF BEARINGS AND YOUR NO FAULT WARRANTY
              Last edited by Technical Support; 07-17-2007, 10:13 AM.

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              • #8
                Re: PLEASE HELP!! bad experience with NEW sbt 657

                Just a guess but it soulds like you have the hoses for your head cooling wrong which is hard to see since most books and diagrams do not show it all the time. One way to tell is to put the attachmet to the flush fitting if the engine does not get as hot as in the water then you have them reversed. Any case the alarm sound was your engine over heating and continued use basically did more damage, IE to your new block, scoring the cylinder walls and damaging the rings.You just admitted to this and SBT does not need to honor it after the trouble was noted it should have been returned or sent to a dealer to prove SBT at fault. But by riding it knowing a fatal problem existed you voided any warrenty you may have had. Usually overheating is a cooling or oil lubricatining issue. but from what you described leads me to say your engine was not getting enough water to cool it down. It is up to you to prove the product bad not the company to prove you did a good install. If you are adamit about it take it too a dealer mechanic and have a SBT rep notified with the findings faxed to them proving it was a block issue and not another component. Then you may get some resolution to situation

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                • #9
                  Re: PLEASE HELP!! bad experience with NEW sbt 657

                  Please forgive me if I am wrong here but that is a load of crap. When you are on the phone with sbt you can clearly hear "sbt engines come standard with a one year FAULT FREE warranty sink it forget the oil no problem send it back and we will send you another one". NOW if you forget the oil or sink it wouldnt that be your fault. SBT says no fault what does that state in itself IF what your saying is correct then it would not be a no fault warranty it would change it to a limited warranty. And no I did not admit fault to anything I said the buzzer came on after a period of riding and imediatly stopped after a few minutes we started it back up the buzzer went off like crazy and imediatly stopped again.It maybe hard to understand the story on a web forum but I assure you I have had numbers of people already email me with problems they have had similar to this. You may be one of the lucky ones who have no problems with sbt or just a lot of money to throw at a problem when it happens but I don't like dropping hundreds of dollars on an item that was suppose to be NEW and better than standard YOU are saying after my money of paying for install and now removal and another install plus shipping. I should on top of that go pay a tech some more just to prove the engine was crap. HMMMMMMMMM UUUUUUUU ((((((NO)))))))

                  As was stated by this customer later, it was his rebuilt pump that caused the failure (overheat/light seize), not the quality of the motor. - SBT
                  Last edited by Technical Support; 07-17-2007, 10:14 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Re: PLEASE HELP!! bad experience with NEW sbt 657

                    hey Guys - I'm no expert, but I raced boats professionally for 22 years of my 32 years racing boats. Only to show some mechanical experience - and they were not jet skiis but Grand National marathon boats.

                    i have found one thing with the sea doo shop (factory) manual. they can be wrong - blatently wrong. I almost hooked up the water lines incorrectly when I looked at the manual and it showed something different from what I thought was right. I check and sure enough, the water inlet from the pump was reversed in the actual craft I was working on.

                    Your incident could have happened because of that (emphasized could).

                    Another thing, Sea Doos with the old grey fuel lline cause allot of problems running lean. Read hot! One thing overlooked many times is the fuel selector valve and the strainer in the bottom of the tank pickup. anything that leads to a lean condition, causes more heat. If the water lines were reversed and the craft was lean, you have two conditions that could cause what happened to you. If you have grey lines - CHANGE THEM!!!!! Good ole american fuel line from NAPA wil work fine.
                    Like you, I buy SBT engines because of the "no fault" warranty and explain that to my customers. Thus far I have had not had any problems. they have been as advertised.

                    Good luck, I will follow the results.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: PLEASE HELP!! bad experience with NEW sbt 657

                      Ok lets get the what if maybe's and could be out of the way. I also have worked on motorcross bikes quad atv's motorcycles and atv's of most types for years since the days of the old threewheelers. So I too have a fair comptence in engine repair. Fuel line NOPE I replaced all the old fuel lines whith low pressure hose from autozone. Checked all filters to the carbs and took the cock valve apart and cleaned EVERYTHING. OIL NO I know when you mix certain types of oil they will coagulate or gel so no PLUS I went premix it has nothing to do with it . I too have read all the post about the line failure. OK now running lean NOPE I checked the plugs and they were actualy running pretty rich but to my understanding will not hurt the engine as for the extra fuel and oil but will foul the heck out of the plugs. OK NOW for the repetitive problem the cooling lines. On a 1994 GTX seadoo cooling line placement is pretty straight foward too. On top of the engine there are two totally different size orfices one big and one small. YOU could not possibly swap those unless you were stupid and really forced it. So let me explain all hose placement. Maybe I am wrong BUT if I am wrong it will be because of hlsm.com and their diagram and the recomendation of sbt for insisting I use it. OK I uploaded a very crude drawing of the line placement but I am positive you can follow it. I blew out all the lines with high pressure my tank is set on 120 pounds pressure so I am sure they are free plus I took a hose and blew through with my breath to be sure no dirt dober or spider made a nest or something like that. We rebuilt the jet pump with sbt jetpump kit which failed and most likely the colprit of engine failure. We did not notice this till just recently. We had no idea since there was no tension or friction on the shaft when we turned it. After inspecting the screwed bearings which would explain the high pitch whine from start up. I took it to two different dealers and explained installation procedure. To both of there opinions it was a bad bearing. I will also explain this in detail. TO SBT I am sorry the blame on the engine but your rude and unacceptable customer service is still not forgiven. If you look on sbt seals they only have one lip that seals on the impeller shaft on oem seals they have two. Now I use a press so lets get that straight no banging on the bearings I learned that years ago. There are two needle roller bearings in the center of the jetpump. The impeller shaft and the thrust washer and thrust bearing . after removal of old parts we installed the two roller bearings numbers facing toward rear both flush with housing next placement of seal fit flush with housing we put the thust bearing on the shaft then thrust washer put the shaft through torqued the empeller filled half way with seadoo oil then put the cone on with a all new o ring we then filled the rest of the way with oil put loctite on plug and installed the pump. Yes we checked to make sure the the impeller spun fine NO FRICTION. YES we checked the pressure all was fine. What most likely happen was a pinched needle bearing which failed and caused a chain reaction which caused the heat then the seal to fail. To you all, It is a whole lot better to get oem parts from your dealer for bearings or items which is not warranted by sbt the cost sbt $50 plus shipping jet pump rebuild kit will they replace HELL NO dealer oem bearings plus seals $65 and local in stock. Will they replace they said no problem if you ever have a problem with any of our seals or bearings just bring them back your fault or not we will replace under reason. To my understanding all dealers are the same on returns of seadoo product also with honda but you should check either way oem will definetly be a hell of a lot better than sbt after market stuff. remember that seal the olnly thing standing between your pump and the water. sbt has only one lip oem has two and are twice as thick . SBT will not warranty or replace nothing but their motors YOU will have a hard time and a long wait on that. I am not really getting down on sbt I am just telling my experience you all do what you want REALLY if you have the money to throw at it and you don't mind the work and an interuped and painful summer of riding. All the hastle of dealing with warranty and technical its your fault no its your fault think about it instead of replacing a $50 set of jetpump bearings my fault or not and risk me telling 10 of my friends and detouring their potential business sbt assocciates were extremly rude and completly refused to accomidate me on anything just imagine what they will do on a high dollar item????????????? Check for yourself they will tell you once you get it in your hands and is placed on your ski its yours faulty or not.
                      Attached Files

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                      • #12
                        Re: PLEASE HELP!! bad experience with NEW sbt 657

                        EDIT:

                        It is unfortunate that I have to intervene, but these posts are getting out of control. I have personally heard many of the conversations between Joey and my staff and the staff has done their best to sit through his constant and repeated calls.
                        • Joey blamed our product quality for the engine seizing. After numerous posts on how bad our engines were and what he deserved for it, he discovered that there may have been an issue with the rebuild of the jet pump. Even though he heard high pitch whining coming from the drivetrain, he continued to run it for two tanks (his comments to our tech line) "until the engine seized." He then demanded we replace the bearings as well as the engine that was possibly ruined by the failed jet pump.
                        • If it was indeed a bearing issue and the failure was immediate, then we would have discussed how we would handle the issue as we stand by the fit and initial use of our parts. We warrant our parts specifically like this because we do not control the assembly or condition of the mating parts and there is large variability. Instead Joey chose to ride the noise he heard into failure of the engine and jet pump (per his notes). He then proceeded to blast the company on the web, continually calling SBT, transferring from one person to the next try to get a different answer.
                        • We need to address all of our customers, esp this time of year as we get a high volume of calls. Any curtness that Joey may have encountered I apologize for, but is also somewhat understandable under the circumstance. People are holding on our lines while someone repeatedly calls asking the same questions because he is not getting answers he likes. Our staff is human as well and tries their best to be curteous to our customers, even under duress
                        • Our engine warranty is CLEARLY written and states that you must return the core before we send out the warranty to guarantee the return of the core. A quicker option is to purchase a second engine, which we refund upon the receipt of the core. Joey was not happy with this - that is unfortunate but this has always been our policy. We are still waiting to receive the core. We WILL honor our Engine No Fault warranty, as we do for all our qualified sales.
                        • We try to do our best to come to the best solution possible with our customers. But we will not be held hostage with threats of spamming and bad press. We have allowed this thread to continue in an attempt to allow people to speak to their experience, both good and bad. It is unfortunate that this has degraded into labeling and specific attacks on individuals. When it reaches that depth, we will lock out users.
                        • We did receive the motor and it had been overheated with a resulting light seizure (likely caused by the cavitation in the jet pump). The warranty motor was sent out as our no-fault policy states
                        Sincerly,
                        SBT Management

                        "TO sbt I am sorry again to have blamed the engine but again your customer service is the pitts................................
                        Last edited by Technical Support; 07-17-2007, 10:22 AM. Reason: Posts Getting out of Control

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