WHO IS BETTER? PPG OR GROUP K....

[JTCURIOUS]

I just recently acquired a 95 HX with the following mods and have been doing some research in modifying this ski and was wondering who would be the best to help me complete this project. I have heard nothing but positive things about both of them and would trust either one to do the work but I am just curious to hear from the rest of you guys because all of you have helped me so much in the last couple of months I cant thank you enough..

Here it goes>...

Bored .25 over, seadoo race pistons/rings, gaskets
Westcoast billet F/A w/velocity stacks
R&D Head
caged wrist pin bearings
Alloy water bypass fittings
Worx maxiloader intake grate
R&D pro series ride plate

And some other stuff but that is all cosmetic..

I am looking for more speed, but with the dying of the sport class I might not get the chance to race, so it would probably be for serious rec riding and occasional racing.. I would like to keep it in the range of 2K if possible

Thanks Jeff

[Bill O'Neal]

Jeff,
The next logical step is to do someting that makes the impellor turn faster to propel you to greater speeds ( Duh!) [img]smile.gif[/img]

As you have a head and filters, the most speed improvement would be an exhaust system.

There are two systems that actually produce better results on HX's, and are still in production. The most widely used system is the Factory Pipe Products HX pipe, and the Rossier 720 pipe. There are pros and cons to both.

On the positive side, they make great horsepower gains and your boat can achieve much better speeds. Both come with aftermarket Rev Limiters to allow for the extra rpm that they produce.

The negative of installing these systems is that they require precise tuning. By that, I mean jetting, fuel delivery and quality (octane), and impellor changes. Also, when running a 720 at higher rpm, it creates some hidden problems with balancing that can cause some cracked manifolds and in some instances, cracked cases. I strongly suggest that the engine be built from scratch with a trued and balanced crankshaft, and new case seals. I also suggest a lightened aluminum front flywheel and what I call a "case brace" or aluminim spacer plate that mounts between the rotary valve cover and the cases to beef up the intake side of the cases, to prevent cracking. Pre-mixing the fuel and oil is good insurance that the motor recieves the lubrication that it will need.

Modified 720's are very tricky to tune. The oem carbs are on the small side and their single fuel pump is barely adequiet (sp) to supply enough fuel at WOT on a modified motor at higher rpms.

I personally like 44-46's on an R&D intake manifold with both fuel pumps hooked up ( or an external pump) to feed enough fuel to the motor under all conditions.

If you plan to run pump gas, ditch the higher compression head if you add a good pipe. A very conservative head mod will work, but only if you have alot of squish clearance between the head and pistons. I do not recommend over 13 to 1 compression ratio and pump gas. The OEM head is around 12.1 to 1 CR.
A lower pitched prop is recommended to allievate some of the load on the motor and allow it to run cooler. An overpropped 720 with a pipe is asking for trouble.
As you can see, modding a 720 can be a challenge. But, for some, they wouldn't have it any other way.

Good luck, I love a fast HX.

[JTCURIOUS]

Bill,
All of these mods to the engine have been done before the start of the riding season, so they only have about 30 hours on them, you kind of lost me. So are you saying that you would use the stock head for the HX istead of the R&D one, It sounds like you are talking serious $$$$ to do all of that work. I am not mechanically inclined to do the work myself so I imagine it will be very costly, I was leaning towards the level 2 PPG package, what are your thoughts on that? Or should I just add the pipe and then go from there? I have only been involved with PWC's for a couple of months, but it gets addicting once you do it.

Jeff

[Bill O'Neal]

Jeff,
Yes, they are addictive allright ! And, they can get deeply into your pocketbook in a hurry if you start cutting corners.

Go back and re-read my suggestions again. These come from building a bunch of HX's since 1995.

If you are not willing to spend the money to have your HX built right, then expect the worse after you finish it.

There are many speed merchants that will gladly take your dough. Make sure you are dealing with one who fully knows the pitfalls of the 720 in modified form. Been there done that, got the T shirt !

Basically, you are asking to make an 85 horse motor into a 110 hp motor that spins several hundered rpm beyond what SD built it to spin.

The balancing issues are real. Believe it. The oem magneto flywheel is way out of balance at high rpm. Beats the crap out of the front bearings on the crankshaft and heats the front clyinder to extreme temps, adding to the possibility of a siezure and doesn't even leave a trace of evidence behind that inexperenced people would notice.

The higher compression will kill the motor after you put the high performance pipe on it and try to run pump gas through it. Believe it.

I didn't even mention the driveshafts that spin couplers or that perfect alignment is mandatory of the engine and pump.

If you plan on building any 720 to perform like a 785, you had better do it right.

The old saying, "pay me now, or pay me later" comes to mind here.

Hopefully, now that I have told you about the bad things that can happen, you take my advice and really think this project through. Ask around. Smart and experenced builders will agree with what I have written. The ones who don't are the ones to look out for.

BTW, there are alternatives to PPG and GroupK [img]smile.gif[/img]

[JTCURIOUS]

Bill,

by no means was I questioning your knowledge, so what kind of price tag am i looking at to do it right, maybe I just wait a little longer to do it thats all, Give me some other alternatives to PPG and groupk, I am open to all suggestions, I live in the Detroit area, is there anyone that you could recommend to me that is somewhat close to me, I appreciate all of your insight it has been really helpful, it seems that everyone has a different story but no one has the credentials to back them up, so it is good to see people out there who still care and are willing to share thier knowledge.

Jeff

[Bryan Glynn]

Click on his signiture and you'll see a #1 choice...

[Bill O'Neal]

Jeff,
We are well known in the HX racing world. Your region 6 is a hotbed for HX racing. Past Champions from WCM include Rodger Claus, Dave Zier, Cory Rarick, Billy Raines, Matt Halfar, all from region 6, Brett Sizemore, Chris Marrone, and a few others. I am building a Havasu WC boat now for Derrick Parker and a motor for Kenny Simms. All together, our HX's have won over a dozen World and National championships here in America, and more in foriegn countries.
Currently, our Japanese rider Benji, won a few rounds out on our National tour this year and finished a respectable 2nd overall in our national tour racing this year here in America. Not bad for a businessman from Japan who flies in each week to race, and races with zero practice time. His HX was consistantly one of the very fastest, if not the fastest out on tour this year.
We also have built some championship winning HX's for endurance racers.

One thing that we learned was that the 720 needs special attention to detail if you expect it to live.

Please call me directly at Watercraft Magic during business hours for pricing. Our number is 626 914 9509, our hours are 8am to 4 pm pst. Click on my website address below for a better look at what we do with Sea Doo watercraft.

[MattHX]

JT I can assure you that with a factory pipe you will do tons of tuning. If your run your stock impeller with a factory pipe you will over power your impeller. Like a car spinning it's tires up to red line and then shattering the motor due tio it not being intended for such a harsh thrashing. LIKE BILL SAID DO IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME OR LEAVE IT ALONE.Curt at jazz motor sport is grreat with the HX and is fair in his price range. It is extrmley hard to find a certifeid pwc builder anywhere. If you have the bucks send the whole ski to BILL at Watercraft Magic. The HX is an endless rode to performance. One other thing is that when you get above 60 plus mph on an HX you start to have stability problems.As in the whole ski, I don't know much about hull blueprinting but you can ask Bill about that.Hey BIll what aftermarket F/A do you recomend for the HX's I know I will need the support brace and need to adjust my pop-off pressure etc.

[JTCURIOUS]

I have no doubt that you could make my HX a beast, but can you give me some input on the sport class, many people have said that it is not going to be around too much longer, I would like to start racing next season and so if spending the cash is what must be done then so be it, I don't do anything else except work. Work hard Play harder right?

matt, curt has been a great help to me and has guided me through some things, I really appreciate you hooking me up with him, I am still getting used to the difference between the XP and the HX, the HX is something that you dont get bored with on the water.

Bill, I am going to get in touch with you sometime this week, do I just ask for you, I look forward to speaking with you

Jeff Thomas

[Bill O'Neal]

Matt, My preference for flame arresstors is the Prok or Flys ( both made by Prok). But I always use a case brace, unless the owner wants to keep his oil injector. In that case I use R&D with the oem bracket that secures the flame arresstors to the head. There are a couple of others out there, like OP and Westcoast ( both out of production now) that utilize a bracket.
Whatever you do, do not run without either a case brace or bracket. Manifold cracking will occur for sure, followed by piston siezure. It is not all that uncommon to find case cracking too if you hang those heavy carbs out there without supporting them one way or the other.

The 720 motor viberates radically at higher than oem rpms. It has a very light set of cases, and a very long crankshaft for a two clyindered motor. The front flywheel is a long way from the two front main bearings. The OEM flyweel is not even close to being true and balanced. I highly suggest that you use an aluminum front flywheel to remove weight from that area, plus they are in much better balance than the oem steel flywheels.
The alternative is to get the oem flywheel balanced by an automotive balancing shop. Although not as light as the aluminum flywheel, at least you will know that whatever you do to balance that flywheel will make a big impact on how long those front bearings will last.

Jeff,
You can reach me between 8am and 4 pm pst on weekdays at my shop. If I am out of the shop, leave me a message with my employee. Leave your number and I will call you back.

[Bill O'Neal]

Jeff,
The sprort class will somday go by the wayside, but not in the real near future, as long as there are racers who want to race in that class.

SD has not produced a sport class boat since 1997 But, Racers seem to love their sport boats and keep racing them. Regional promoters make their money from entries. As long as they get entries in the sport class, they will have races for them. Region 6 is a good place to be if you race a sport class boat. Call the promoter, Jacques Bryant, for futher information of his plans for sport class racing in region 6. Jetsports Magazine has the contact information. You do belong to the IJSBA, don't you ? If not, join now.
Go to the IJSBA website and sign up. Your membership will help all facets of PWC'ing. We need members. We need strength to fight the enviro-whackos that want us off of "their" waterways. Call 1-800 964-5722 to join up with the rest of us serious watercraft users and racers.

The IJSBA has a great website with a message board that you can use to talk about all kinds of pwc related topics, including racing. Many promoters answer the questions posted there. A great benefit of joining is the magazine, Jetsports. It brings you all kinds of information about racing, and rules changes, results and other information pretaining to watercraft.