ROSSIER ENG. PERF PIPE (SPX)

[polaridoo]

I was considering buying a ROSSIER ENG. PERF PIPE for my 1997 Seadoo SPX. Would this
pipe make a dramatic difference in power? Do you know if this pipe makes more power than the
stocker throuhout the entire RPM range? And will it require a lot of tuning to get it to run right
after insatllation? If so, what kinds of things would have to be changed. They also claim
a 18hp increase on a stock engine, is that correct?

[785]

I had this pipe on my 97 spx and it was ok. You could modify your stock pipe to perform almost as well. From my understanding, Rossier had a few different stampings of this pipe. Some people I know can get it to spin real well and other have not. I could only get about 7200 out of it. I just bought a spec 2 and am waiting to see the results. I have been told it will be good but I will have to wait to see. For the stock pipe, on the stinger, there is a boss that can be drilled and add a 1/4 barb to 1/8th npt fitting and install a 180 main jet. Plug the water box and remove the water valve. For the mid pipe, use a 120 main jet. This works well. If you want more low end, you can add water injection to the head pipe and a jet works valve to the new stinger boss that was drilled and hang on tight. These fitting can be purchased for under $20.00 including the jets. You will have to rejet your carbs as well. Other mods will also affect jetting. By the way, you can usually pick up a used Rossier for about $150.00.

Good luck
785

Good luck
785.

[Bill O'Neal]

785,
Stampings ? Everyone I saw was a cast aluminum pipe ? As far as I know, they only had one casting.
Before Rick took over at Rossier, Charlie sent me one of the first pipes he built right after returning from Florida and testing his pipe with Terri Hundermark on her tour limited 785.
I took the pipe and put it on my 785 limited. I tried everything under the sun to make that pipe work. I did everything Charlie suggested, plus more. I never got close to what my (then) Spec1 was achieving in rpm and speed across the water. Shortly after that Factory Pipe Products came out with the Spec2, which gave us an additional 300 rpm over and above the 7250 rpm that we were getting with the spec1. My limited 785 radared 67.1 mph and got the holeshot in both motos at the World finals the next year. I have always pushed the Spec2 since then. A couple of years passed and Coffman built a rec pipe that was similiar in performance to the Rossier pipe. Then Gary Coffman built the 785 race pipe, which I have seen do a fantastic job of running with or ahead of the Spec2, depending more upon who was tuning and riding the boats at the time made the difference in which pipe won. The only other 785 pipe worth mentioning was Bo Dupriest' Neptune pipe, orginally designed by Russ Lemke. But that pipe was a tricky pipe to get dialed in, and often split a weld and leaked water.

PSI made a twin pipe, Ape made a cast pipe and R&D made a cast pipe. They all did something, but were never in the league of a Spec2, Coffman Race, or Neptune pipe.

[Bill O'Neal]

The Rossier exhaust system for the 785 never lived up to the competitions' pipes, IMO.
Horsepower is a funny thing. You can claim anything on the scale. Lets' say you have a 110 hp motor (like a 97 SPX has) and lets say it makes 40 hp at 3500 rpm. Lets say I make an exhaust pipe, and it makes 58 hp at 3500 rpm. That's a gain of 18hp ! But, does that 18hp come when you want it ? Wouldn't you rather have 128 hp at around 7400 rpm ? That's where I'd like my extra 18hp to be. I'm sure their 785 pipe makes some extra hp at higher than oem rpm, but when you advertise a performance pipe and tell me that you use the oem impellor and don't even need an aftermarket rev limiter, I have my doubts going into such a deal.

[785]

That is why I spent the buck and got a spec 2. I have heard nothing bad about it. As far as the casting of the pipe it was only waht I heard but I have no way of telling if it was true. It probably was not. I purchased my first Rossier when Charlie and Glenda were still there. Last I spoke with Rick, he is not making the pipe any longer nor did he have any early last year. He thought of running 50 of them but I am not sure if he ever did. Anyways, keep up the good on this board.

Later,
785

[Rotaxgrenade]

It's not a bad pipe,as people are literally giving them away AND you know what to expect with it....
7200 seems to be the "wall" with them,(there is a guy out there who is getting 7400 + - on a 96 XP with groupK sleeper ported cyls though).
The pipe will give more low- mid punch than a modded stocker, hands down..been there done that.
It needs advance on the timing for starters.
It seems to not like alot of compression vs rpm's
165-170 seemed to be the magic #. (FP loves compression and rpm's [img]smile.gif[/img] )
It NEEDS ECWI! It was night and day without it.
A 100-120 jet in the midpipe
Charlie claims you can't run more than a 185 in the stinger or it will Deto .
I, and 3 others run NO jets in the stinger and have not had problems..every motor is different,approach this with care.Alot of oldtimers say CR can't even tune his own pipes! Maybe that was partially your dilemna Bill! [img]smile.gif[/img]
Jetworx valve set at 4k rpm inline to stinger,get rid of rave,plug WB.
It seems to like the water routing reversed (we are in warm water) and helps with the heat soak rpm loss
I run stock carbs w/ tau cetis ( too lazy to get proks,I need to tho ) 142.5/145m 70p 2.0 NS with 95g spring screws about 1/2 t out.
My boat is a 96xp and I mainly run surf and only care about hard low-mid and run about 210lbs compression (by accident,long story) with a JD medium grate and swirl prop it will pull 7150-90 all day in bouys and it will out holeshot level 1 951 XP's.
If you realize what the pipe will and won't do,it really is not a bad pipe for the money (used that is),but if you have the scratch get the spec II you won't regret it!!

[Bill O'Neal]

Timebomb,
My "dilemna" was that I was spoiled ( and sponsored by FPP ) at the time that Charlie produced his pipe. Although Charlie desperately wanted to have some well known tour race shops approve and run his pipe, it never happened. Even Big Red Racing ran FPP systems on their boats. They were the Rossier sponsored "house raceboats" in 1996.

A good recreational exhaust system ? Yes. You can buy them cheap enough used. The virtues are that the motor never winds up past 7150-7200, pulls a taller prop and is good for some speed. The bad parts are that after installing it and tuning it to peak performance, most Rossier 785 pipe owners still wish they had a Spec2. It is alot of work to end up with something you really don't want all that badly, IMO.

[Rotaxgrenade]

Bill, I see what you mean ! Who wants to take a step backwards!!!
But for free,Hey I won't look a gift horse in the mouth!! And it helped to have the info to make it work,so it was painless.
I Do wish I had the FP

[ScreaminXP]

Please choose,
When you say 1/2 t out, you mean the high screws, right? Also, do you have any idea what the psi is for the flow valve to open at when you say it's set for 4000 rpm? 3-4 psi?
Just curious..I have been tweaking with this Rossier pipe for awhile now and the only rpm gains I could get is by widening the hole in the 180 jet in the stinger. I may just try it with no jet. I am using a 100 in the mid, and a very small one going to the w/b for insurance from burning the exit hose. I have those same jets you have in my stock carbs and popoff is 25 if I remember correctly. I initially had it set higher, but it would lose power at lower rpms so I lowered it and it fixed that.
I have not been able to spin this thing past 6720-6750. Compression is 160, solas X0, 85/88 nozzle, R+D grate, flame arrestors, chokes gone, ecwi set for on at 2200 and off at 5000. My concern is top end rpm (for speed) Any ideas on how to see at least 6900-6950? My high speed screws are set around 1 1/2 and 1 1/4 out, and I think it may be rich, but as I turn them in, I haven't seen an rpm drop yet, but nervous about keeping in the safety zone. The plugs always look light brown like they should. (not real light but not dark or too wet)
Also, by reversing the flow, do you mean having the water flow through the head in at the top instead of the other way around? What is the advantage or difference? I am also in warm water so that's why I ask.
Educate me. I'm either too rich and too scared to lean it more, or not enough water to the stinger, or possibly a combination of the two? Any input is appreciated.
Oh..and I had a stock impeller before the solas and the swap made zero difference in rpms. Should I bore out the nozzle a bit maybe or go back to a less agressive intake grate to reduce the load on the engine?
I'm hunting for ideas for more top..bottom and mid is awesome. Top end seems to take a long time to get to peak rpms as if the pipe takes too long to dry out. It seemed like it improved when I shut the water off at 5k instead of 5600 as it was previously set.
I've got the parts on there and already spent all the money on the stuff, but something is messing up my combination in some way and I would love to get the full potential on the top end for what I already have into this thing. Input from anyone is appreaciated. Avg. speed is 58-59 on gps in slight chop, and it has been over 60 with this same exact setup, but if I can find 300 rpm, it will closer to where I want for speed. Its a .040 over sbt engine with about 18 hrs on it now so that is tight.
Thanks for any suggestions

[ March 20, 2002, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: ScreaminXP ]

[Rotaxgrenade]

I never worried about what psi the valve cracked at,just the rpms. I think I used all the washer/shims they gave me to get the 4k.I took the hose off the stinger and dumped it overboard and ran the ski on the trailer to see when it came on.
I run a 90 in my mid and after a couple of good pulls on accellerating I pop the seat off real quick and sprinkle water on the pipe just below the coupler and it sizzles......There are conflicting but valid points on this part,as some say that is too hot if it sizzles, and will heat up the underseat temps and cause rpm loss from the hot air the carbs have to breathe,and of course Charlie also sez that how it should be set up.I have noticed the power loss when bashing bouys and when it cools down it pulls fine.On the other side of the coin,if the pipe is not dry enough it won't get the revs....
When I beat bouys I go to 120 and the pipe stays nice and cool,I think a happy medium is to get it to where it right before sizzle temp.
The mid pipe jet is enough to keep the stinger coupler cool (plus the ECWI) so I would ditch the WB jet for now.
I run the water as follows:Water in from the pump all the way to the front head nipple
Make a "U" shaped hose (autozone has a nice molded hose for like 5 bucks think it's P?N 4444)
The hose from the mid pipe goes to the overboard port. There are variations to get the same effect but this seems to work for me.
Yes my high screws are 1/2 - + turns out. You are looking for "coffee and cream" color on your plugs,and you just have to not be scared and experiment.But I will tell you this...PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT THE MOTOR IS DOING! If it does something weird,coughs,hesitates, anything...get your foot out of it and investigate, don't keep going thinking it'll clear up.Do short bursts of full throttle on your plug chops till you are sure you are not gonna stick it and do a little bit longer run to verify it's right.
If you have a good tach it can help you tell what you jetting is doing- Does it peak out and then climb slowly or drop? The Hot tach is the ultimate but $$.
Oh yeah, Timing.....It seems it likes 2 degrees initial and about 4 retard,I have to check my timing so I can give you my settings when I do.They won't rev unless they have the timing. gotta run... hope this helps

[ScreaminXP]

thanks.. my rpms seem to peak out, then climb slowly. If it does drop by 50-100, it comes back up again under WOT to where it was and dances around just a bit. I know that if it starts to drop, its lean, but when I go leaner, it seems to lose a bit of power on the top end, but the rpms don't start dropping, so I always end up going 1/8 turn richer and leaving it there.
I'm going to try the "no jet in the stinger" trick and try to check my timing as well as checking what rpm the flow valve opens at and see what happens.
Thanks!

[ScreaminXP]

by the way, do you know if anyone makes a fitting for the stinger which will extent down into that hole and has a small angled slit at the end to create a "wall of water" spray effect, rather than just one big hole going straight into the flow?
Wouldn't this be beneficial if you could get a wide stream of water like the one in the ECWI fitting down into the stinger to make better use of the water?

Also, my pipe has never gotten a sizzle..maybe just close to that, though. (100 jet in mid) On the longer 97 hull, heat isn't as big an issue since the pipe and engine sit out in front and there are those "indy style" air inlets circulating plenty of cool air into it.

[ March 20, 2002, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: ScreaminXP ]

[Rotaxgrenade]

Sounds like you have a handle on the jetting and know what is going on.
I got lucky as my boat is a 96 and the advance curves can be changed with the race programmer.
Are you running an msd enhancer? You might have to get one or a microtouch (i don't know if they make it for yours) so you can play with the timing advance and retard.I have a feeling that is your holdup.
Bill O should be able to explain the "black arts" of ignition advance/curves.
I don't know of anyone who makes a spraybar for that.Unless you modify it to use a regular bar but thats cutting alot of meat from the boss.
I know one guy who made a neat needle valve setup for the headpipe jet,but haven't seen him out here lately.Alot easier that changing the jets in that stupid configuration.

[ScreaminXP]

My ignition is stock, and it's all a fixed setup aside from a setting in the MPEM which can be adjusted at the dealer with their programmer to adjust the initial timing. I'm going to at least check my base timing to see where its set and maybe look for an enhancer with some adjustability if I have to, but from what I've seen out there, the 97 model year ones were very pricey.
Thanks for the info.. when I find the gremlin I'll post an update.

[*97 SPX*]

ScreaminXP,

About the question you had about a nozzle for the stinger.....
MSD Factory Direct Performance.com has a spray nozzle
for their water injection. The one that would probably work
is the pipe mount # 30-00-5521. I believe that it is the
same size thread (1/8 NPT) as most exhausts use for
their water fittings. You may want to confirm that with
you parts source or MSD directly. If it is the same, all you
will need to do is find a female barbed fitting to go on
top. If all goes well, you may have the sprayer you
mentioned.

AllPerceptions

[ March 22, 2002, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: AllPerceptions ]