97 SPX Winterizing Procedure (Antifreeze)

[John Kubiak]

Re: 97 SPX Winterizing Procedure (Antifreeze)

This post got way off topic, and I personally apologize.
The question originally asked was simple enough, how to winterize a Sea-Doo 787 equipped PWC with antifreeze. The specific needs of the 787 for winterizing are due to the angled design of the engine and exhaust allowing several large areas to hold cooling water, even when the ski has been drained properly for storage.

There is another general type post that covers the basic information, here it is....

If you are going to store your craft for a couple months or more, you need to winterize. The purpose of this is to make sure the internal parts of the engine do not start to rust, and to make sure the fuel in the ski does not start to break-down and oxidize.

The first thing is to add stabilizer to the fuel. You can get fuel stabilizer at any marine or auto supply store, just mix it in the ratio according to the back of the bottle, and top off the tank with the stabilized fuel. After you add the stabilizer to the fuel tank, then you have to run the stabilized fuel through the lines and the carbs, you can do that when you flush the engine or on the last ski trip you make, just make sure you have run it enough to pump the stabilized fuel through the carbs.

The next thing you should do is flush the engine as you do after each ride, except you will fog the motor just before blowing out the excess water. Connect the flush kit, start the engine, turn on the water. Let the craft run for about 5 minutes at idle to flush out the cooling system.

See this video for flush procedures: http://server1.sbtontheweb.com/foru...ead.php?t=12000

To fog the ski, you need a can of Fogging Oil, available at nearly any dealer or auto parts store for a buck or two. It's basically foaming oil in a spray can that you can inject into the air intake or directly through the carbs, to coat the engine internally with a thick layer of protective oil. Spray down each carb for 30 seconds.

Some skis will have little plugs on the airbox over the carbs, that you can remove for access. Some skis such as the Yamaha powervalve 1200's have no access, and you are not able to fog the motor properly, you must pour a heavy amount of oil down the plug holes and bump the motor over several times to distribute it as best you can. After fogging is complete, put 1oz of two-stroke oil into each spark plug hole and bump the motor over a few times.

After you finish the fogging procedure, shut off the hose water, blip the throttle a couple times and shut the motor off.

Lubricate all the ski's grease fittings and cables. You need to have a grease gun and a cable luber comes in very handy. There are several grease points on a craft, usually on the drive train (pto, pump, drive shaft holder).

When all the lubing is complete, then you should remove the battery and place it on a maintenance charge. We recommend a Battery Tender. You can buy a battery tender at motorcycle shops, or several places online. Do not use a trickle charger; if left on too long it could overcharge the battery. A Battery Tender is a special charger that you can leave the battery hooked up to indefinitely. Maintain the battery's electrolyte levels with distilled water.

If you have a Sea-Doo you also need to change your pump oil once a year, when you winterize for storage. See this thread for instructions:
http://server1.sbtontheweb.com/foru...read.php?t=4088

Now that all the internal work is done the only thing left to do is wash and cover your craft.
__________________
Bryan Glynn
SBT Webmaster

Prior to buttoning everything up and covering the ski, you should do the following:
remove hose from cylinder head to exhaust pipe, fill the head and pipe with 50/50 automotive low-tox® propylene glycol antifreeze until you see the antifreeze coming out of the Cooling System Indicators (CSI's) or "pissers"

[Riixxii]

Re: 97 SPX Winterizing Procedure (Antifreeze)

The topic got a little heated and I apolagize also. The term RV is what we refer to as LOW TOX antifreeze. People use different methods to insure proper storage of their units and when one differs from the other it really doesn't matter who's way is the right way as long as the end result is the same. A happy ski when it comes out of storage. I personally don't fill the pipe and cylinders with antifreeze, I just use for "flushing" purposes. Once I am sure the cooling system is free of water I see no need to fill it. If one prefers to do it that way, more power to ya'. Whatever works for you and what your comfortable with is the right way. The long cold winters here on hard water still suck though. haha

[John Kubiak]

Re: 97 SPX Winterizing Procedure (Antifreeze)

The point is, this procedure is specifically for a Sea-Doo 787 engine, the cylinders will retain about a cup of water each, because, when everything is drained....you can't remove this water unless you take the top end apart.....this is enough water to push the base gasket out from the block/cylinder joint and cause the base gasket to tear, and leak, thus allowing water to enter the engine and begin corroding the crankshaft, bearings and cylinders*, as the weather warms up and the freeze begins to thaw. Then when it's time to bring the ski back to life for the new season, the engine keeps ingesting water for no obvious reason and/or the engine is ruined, and requires replacement.

*And in the worst case this happens in the PTO cylinder, and the water ends up in the balancer shaft cavity and totally destroy the engine if and when you try to start it, Did you ever see a balancer shaft rust out for no reason??? How about the balance shaft section of the crankcases busting to pieces on the PTO side??? Or the bearing end seal cap being pushed out of the crankcases, and busting out the snap-ring groove/land area in the process???

[97seadoospx]

Re: 97 SPX Winterizing Procedure (Antifreeze)

I was just wondering if you put too much antifreeze in could it fill the exhaust and flow into the engine back throw the exhaust port?

[John Kubiak]

Re: 97 SPX Winterizing Procedure (Antifreeze)

If you stop filling when the CSI's (pissers) start to show antifreeze, then it will be fine....Again, this procedure is specifically for a Sea-Doo 787 engine!

[Riixxii]

Re: 97 SPX Winterizing Procedure (Antifreeze)

Yes it could, just as if you were to tow the craft in too fast without pinching off the cooling hose. When you flush your engine, and I will again say,FLUSH, the engine, you are eliminating all the fresh water from your cooling system. If you run a half gallon of RV, LOW-TOX,NON-TOX, whatever you prefer to call it, thru your cooling system you are not gonna freeze damage anything. I have winterized countless 787cc watercraft and have NEVER had a freeze related failure in the spring. EVER. As you are flushing with the "antifreeze" you will assuredly push the small amount of water out of the small cavity that John refers to. And yes, it can and will push about a quarter to half inch of your base gasket out IF it is water and freezes. That is ONLY if it is not flushed with anything other than water. If you are unsure of any advice and/or methods on this forum you should bring your ski to an authorized Sea-Doo dealer and if you have any issues in the spring caused by winterization let the dealer eat it. Maybe have the dealer walk you thru their method of storage. We have done it for many customers that store their own skis. They should be happy to do it for you and if not, try another dealer.

[97seadoospx]

Re: 97 SPX Winterizing Procedure (Antifreeze)

I asume that the only way for the antifreeze to get into the engine would be if the water box part of the exhaust filled and the antifreeze went up throw the tuned pipe and into the exhaust port and by the looks of the pipe it would take alot of antifreeze to do that?

[micheal3200]

Re: 97 SPX Winterizing Procedure (Antifreeze)

Well, there is alot of discussion on this page about what types of antifreeze to use. I totally understand the reasoning behind pink RV antifreeze, it however does not give your engine and of the critical protection it so needs. The green anti freeze protects and coats the metals so they will not cause you any problems down the road. So yes, in the spring you need to flush the system out again before putting it in the water as you do want to be responsible as not to put the green antifreeze in the water.

As for winterizing your ski, I have the service manual on CD and would be mor ethen happy to email the parts you need to get your ski winterized. Please email me at jvcmn@hotmail.com and I will email you what you need.

[Bill O'Neal2]

Re: 97 SPX Winterizing Procedure (Antifreeze)

In big bold letters in the 1997 Sea Doo service manual it states "CAUTION, always use ethylene-glycol antifreeze containing corrosion inhibitors specifically recommended for aluminum engines".

[Riixxii]

Re: 97 SPX Winterizing Procedure (Antifreeze)

O.K., go to your local Sea-doo or marine dealer and ask them for some PROPYLENE GLYCOL that is rated for the temperature of -100 degrees below zero. Now read the label carefully, on it ,it will say that it is safe for all engines INCLUDING aluminum engines. In bold letters to boot. Now, as for the Sea-Doo recommendation for the ETHYLENE GLYCOL mixture, the service manuals "highly SUGGEST" the use of it. Now I think is where the "best way to store my ski" comes into play. Personally, I FLUSH the cooling system. I believe that who was he, outdrive man?, does it the same way. And he doesn't have any issues in the spring. But he's in Ohio, does it even freeze there? (sorry outdrive man, just razzin' you) Once you have completely flushed the cooling system why is every one so adamant about re-filling it? Are you afraid of freeze cracking empty water jackets? There is no need. Maybe its just my part of the country. We have no salt water and very little brackish water, so corrosion doesn't play a part in our service. Winterizing is simple, Flush it, Fog it and Forget it. :emoticonw

[brumor]

Re: 97 SPX Winterizing Procedure (Antifreeze)

To stir the antifreeze debate up even more ... here is a Jet Skiing Chemist's point of view.

The Basics:
Traditional automobile antifreeze is made from Ethylene Glycol which is a poisonous (toxic) substance. Most car antifreezes (like Prestone) are mostly ethylene glycol and also have heavy duty corrosion inhibitors added to make sure that the metal parts in the cooling circuit (in particular aluminum radiators) don't corrode. This type of antifreeze is better for almost any kind of engine. But because it is toxic, it must be recovered in the spring and disposed of properly before using your ski. This requires additional effort and cost.

Pink "RV" antifreeze is based on Propylene Glycol which is not toxic (the FDA has approved its use in food but I still wouldn't drink it). Because it is normally used to keep plastic drinking water systems in RV's and boats from freezing, "standard" RV antifreeze typically has small amounts of anti-bacterial agents and no, or very low amounts of corrosion inhibitors in it. This makes it relatively safe to use in drinking water systems and to dispose of without the serious side effects that you would get from automotive antifreeze. Some types of RV antifreeze may claim they are safe for metal pipes and might include a small amount of a less toxic additive which is safe for drinking water systems as long as it is completely flushed in the spring before use. But the standard RV antifreeze is not designed to protect an aluminum PWC marine engine from corrosion.

The Issue:
I don't know how much corrosion occurs from RV antifreeze. I know a lot of people (including most SeaDoo dealers here in Illinois) use it because it is cheap and easy (= more profit for them). I doubt the corrosion would be bad enough to cause noticeable damage after 1 season, but over a number of years, the cumulative effects could cause problems. That's why my SeaDoo factory manual clearly states, "Always use ethylene glycol antifreeze containing corrosion inhibitors specifically recommended for aluminum engines".

The Question:
So the conundrum is: Do I use an automotive antifreeze which is better for my engine but will be a pain to recover in the spring OR do I use RV antifreeze which is cheaper and easier to use, but may cause some harm to my engine over time?

The Answer:
If you are more concerned about the environment for our kids' and grandkids' sake (which most of us should be), use RV antifreeze and hope it doesn't hurt your engine. If you are a gearhead and care more about your engine internals and don't mind the extra work, use automotive antifreeze (BUT DON'T GET LAZY AND LET IT GO INTO THE LAKE NEXT SPRING ... RECOVER IT!!!).

An Alternative?:
There is another alternative which is sort of a hybrid. Several companies make propylene glycol based antifreeze with more powerful automotive type corrosion inhibitors.

Prestone markets its "LowTox" antifreeze more toward automotive applications (see http://www.prestone.com/products/antifreezeCoolant.php). Notice that they don't call it "NoTox" ... it's my understanding that the additional corrosion inhibitors make it less safe for the environment which forces Prestone to recommend recovery. It can be hard to find, but I have seen it at a few auto specialty stores.

Camco, an RV drinking system supplier, makes a product called "BanFrost 2000 Marine Engine" antifreeze specifically for raw water marine engine applications (see http://www.camco.net/Menu.cfm?SupCat...ProductId=2280). Don't confuse this with another product called "Premium BanFrost 2000 Marine/RV Antifreeze" which is only for drinking water systems. I don't have pricing on these products but I suspect they will cost more since they are formulated for a smaller market.

The Politics:
I'm surprised the PWC makers haven't come forward with a specialized product for this purpose. Seems like they could make a lot of money here. It may be that their hands are tied by environmental laws that are so strict, no amount of corrosion inhibitors can be allowed to escape into the environment. Therefore, the PWC manufacturers have to recommend recovery of any antifreeze they could live with ... and since you have to recover it, might as well go with automotive antifreeze which already has a large network in place. Are there any Bombardier environmental attorneys out there who can comment on this?

I have used RV antifreeze in my Ski Nautique for 9 years with no problems. But this has a heavy-walled, cast iron Ford 351 V8 and it takes 3 gallons to fill the block. I purchased a 2000 SeaDoo GTX earlier this summer and am getting ready to winterize it (that's why I was reading this forum). I think I will try to find the BanFrost2000 and see how it is for the environment.

Does anyone else know of a particular propylene glycol antifreeze that is recommended (by the manufacturer, not your neighbor Joe) for aluminum block marine engines and doesn't have to be recovered?

Hope I haven't added to the confusion too much.

PS - Don't confuse "Marine/RV" antifreeze with "Marine Engine" antifreeze. The prior nomenclature simply refers to drinking water systems that can be found on either boats or RV's and is not intended for marine engine applications.