96' SPX Engine Siezed?

[darrylcom]

Took it to the shop for a wear ring. Told them to give estimate, $177. I asked was that the problem, they said yes. Asked tech if he had started the Sea Doo and he said yes, it runs strong. I told him go ahead with the wear ring. Called back the next day and said my starter went out. Thought this was strange, but the price of $225 installed didn't seem so bad, so I asked, have you turned the engine over by hand to make sure it isn't locked up. He replied that he had and everything was fine but the starter. Told him to replace it. He called back the next day and said, the new starter turned the engine over once and then the engine siezed up. It sounded like this guy was going to take me all the way to the cleaners, so I told him to take the "new" starter off and I picked it up with the original bill of $177. I am not a mechanic and have very limited knowledge of the subject, but when I got it home, I pulled the plugs and grabed the impellor shaft with my hand and was able to turn it as many times as I wanted to. If my engine was "siezed" would I be able to turn it? I took the starter, which he didn't reinstall (this was the first time I had ever seen a Sea Doo starter, I hooked up 12v to the starter and it spun, but only after I struck it with a stick (I guess the starter was bad). I stuck it back in to see if it would turn over. The starter would spin when installed (while I tapped it), but would not pop out and turn the engine over. So, before I buy a starter, I wanted to know, is the engine siezed if I can turn the impellor shaft? Should I be able to turn by hand with the plugs in (I can but just barely, very difficult)? Sorry for being so long, just wanted everyone to have the details. Any help would be much appreciated. Darryl

[LBJ]

Re: 96' SPX Engine Siezed?

turning over by hand with plugs installed is difficult - from what you describe, engine seems alright to me.

[pwgsx]

Re: 96' SPX Engine Siezed?

it would be very hard to turn it by hand with the plugs in. See what some others say about the engine, never happened to me so I cant help you there. Had a engine freeze on a dirtbike, everything locked up. Check the compression, whats it reading?

[parrothd]

Re: 96' SPX Engine Siezed?

Sounds fine, replace the starter..

[1fastski.com]

Re: 96' SPX Engine Siezed?

buy the SBT starter { they work great } and cost less then OEMs if the engine turns smooth by hand , also check your ground wire make sure its not soft inside .

[Bill O'Neal2]

Re: 96' SPX Engine Siezed?

Yes a "siezed motor" can somtimes be turned over by hand or with a starter motor. The word "siezed" means that at one time or another, the piston(s) got hot and seized themselves to the clyinders. After a hard siezure, the rings will get stuck in the pistons and you will get a very low compression reading. If the rings are mildly stuck, the compression reading may be fairly good, but slightly lower than normal. Sometimes, after a mild siezure, the rings do not stick at all and the compression readings are normal. The correct compression readings for an oem 1996 SPX motor is 155 psi at sea level. It will be less at higher altitudes, above 1000 ft. The higher you are the lower the readings should be.

Typically, engine siezures are caused by such things as an overheated motor from lack of water passing through it, or an air leak into the motor, or a lack of fuel getting into a clyinder, causing a lean mixture of fuel and air, or a faulty oiling system.

Your next move will be to get a good starter motor and install it. Then a compression test is required to evaluate the condition of the pistons and clyinders. Without this information, you will have no idea wether or not your motoir is damaged from a siezure.
If you find a difference of 5 psi between clyinders, remove the head and inspect the clyinders for damage, or if it is an SBT engine under warranty, call the warranty department at SBT and follow their directions.

[darrylcom]

Re: 96' SPX Engine Siezed?

Thanks everyone for the advice. I ordered a starter motor today and will have it by the end of the week, then I will check the compression and repost my findings.

[darrylcom]

Re: 96' SPX Engine Siezed?

Got the starter and tried to put it in, this is where everything gets real interesting. I ordered a starter for a 96' SPX, which is what I have. Got the starter in and I happened to count the teeth on the old one, which is 8. The new one looked exactly the same, has the same mounting and all, but is a 9 tooth. Now after some craziness, I figured out my 96' SPX has a 787 motor in it (the motor is white, and near the drive shaft, in a stamp says "TYPE 787"). Turns out this is possible but very rare. Anyway, I now know why the mechanic says my motor is siezed. I suppose he didn't count the teeth, put a 9 tooth starter in, and the motor wouldn't turn but the one time. The one time it did turn is the one time that chewed up everything, there is metal shavings inside where the starter mounts.
I have found and ordered the correct starter, should be in Tuesday, and I suppose then I will find out if the shop ruined my SPX. Has anyone heard of a 96' SPX with a 787? Someone told me this is a limited production so Sea Doo could race in the 1100 class? Does anyone know what damage installing a 9 tooth starter in place of an 8 tooth will cause? Should I contact the shop and let them know that I know what they done, or should I wait on the starter to verify my findings? Please help......

[dsolie]

Re: 96' SPX Engine Siezed?

You need to pull open the front mag cover and look for damage on the flywheel and bendix. If there is, take it to the dealer. If there is no damage, clean all the metal shavings off real well and go for the gold.

[darrylcom]

Re: 96' SPX Engine Siezed?

Alright guys, first off thank everyone for the help. Here is where I am now. Got the correct starter, seems that the 8 tooth is rare like the SPX with the 787 motor. Put starter in, turned engine fine for 7 seconds, no start. Let it rest a few, tried again, still nothing. Finally, on the 3 rd try she fired for a second, and then "siezed". Pulled the starter out and the engine broke loose. Put the starter back in, turned the engine over and it fired up and run. I killed it. Waited a few and fired it right back up. Runs perfect. Now the problem: The starter during the first start attempts made a clunk noise that I don't know what is. Sounded like it was maybe hitting metal (Obviously what stopped the motor) My buddy stuck his finger in the starter hole and said that there were some shavings, and he thought he could feel a bad place on the fly wheel, but his finger wouldn't go in all the way, so he wasn't sure.
Questions: Could the mechanic have damaged my flywheel by putting the 9 tooth starter in instead of the 8 tooth that should have been in? How much is it parts and labor typically to put a new fly wheel in? Should I call the shop and tell them? Guys, I appreciate all of you and just wish I would have found this board before I took it to the shop.

[ncdoo]

Re: 96' SPX Engine Siezed?

Like dsolie said, pull the mag cover off and look for flywheel damage. The wrong starter could have definitely caused damage. Take it back and have the dealer fix it if the flywheel teeth are screwed.....

[Bill O'Neal2]

Re: 96' SPX Engine Siezed?

Ok, I need to explain a few things here.

You can put a 9 tooth starter gear on any Sea Doo 587-787 starter. You can also use an 8 tooth starter gear on any Sea Doo 587-787. It will not hurt a darn thing. The reason we have two different gears is the gear ratio. Both will mesh with the flywheel.

In 1995, Sea Doo built an XP 800 limited model two seater. The first 2 dozen or so of these XP 800's went to Sea Doo sponsored racers. I recieved 6 of them. 4 XP 800 with 787 engines, and 2 XP 800 with 787X engines. As we started racing them, we were getting alot of starter motor failures. Like one a week, or so. The engineers from Sea Doo came out and tried a few things to solve our problems. Throughout the season they provided special starter motors with special wiring and windings, better brushes ect. What solved the problem was changing the teeth count on the starter gear from 9 teeth to 8 teeth to give a more favorable gear ratio between the starter gear and the ring gear on the flywheel.

If you put your finger into any Sea Doo mag housing around the starter motor drive area, you will get metal particles on your fingers. That is totally normal.

Sea Doo never made any 1996 SPX 's with 787 engines. If you read the little black ID tag on the back of the hull, the last two digits will read 97, or you have a 720 engine if it reads 96 and it is an SPX hull, not a GSX hull. A 1996 GSX has a 787, as does the GTX and the XP models. 1996 SPX's have 720 engines. Watercraft Magic was one of the Bombardier racing teams and they just did not make any SPX's in 1996 with 787's for any reason, especially not for us to race in the 1200 class, as we allready had 1995 and 1996 XP's with 787X motors in them, and we had been competing in the 1200 class for over a year by then.

You need to probably inspect the ring gear on your flywheel to see if it needs replacing. They do get worn out over time. You also need to find out if you have other engine problems, like siezed pistons.
Any used Sea Doo, Yamaha, Polaris, Tigershark or Kawasaki flywheel will have some worn out teeth on the ring gear. This is because everytime you shut your motor off, it will stop in almost exactly the same spot in the rotation of the crankshaft. There will be a section of teeth about 2-3 inches long that look well worn with lots of shavings in the housing around the starter gear area. This is virtually in all used watercraft and other types of engines.

The gentlemen at your dealership did not cause you the problems that you are experencing. They may be guilty of not knowing an SPX from a GSX or a 1996 model from a 1997 model or something else, but installing a starter with a 8 tooth gear, or installing a starter with a 9 tooth gear, is not what caused you a problem.

The aftermarket has taken this tooth count to a new level to get you to pay more for what they call a "HIGH TORQUE" or "HIGH PERFORMANCE" starter motor. What they have done is use the exact same starter motor with a 8 tooth gear in place of the 9 teeth and called it "high torque" or "high performance", and charge an extra $20.00 for it. Gotta love those marketing guys.

[darrylcom]

Re: 96' SPX Engine Siezed?

Thanks for the help. When I get home this evening I will look at the motor tag, and post everything as well as the VIN so maybe someone can tell me what Sea Doo I have. I know the registration says 96', the original "looking" graphics, say SPX, and the tag on the motor near the driveshaft says TYPE 787 781 cc's. I guess since these aren't titled in AL, then someone could have messed up a bill of sale, or maybe even changed the graphics to look like a slower craft so they could have fun making people mad. I just want to know what I have so I can order parts. How do I post pics to this message board?

[Bill O'Neal2]

Re: 96' SPX Engine Siezed?

Using the attachment option at the bottom of the page when you post a new subject title, you can attach digital photos directly from your picture files on your computer. Click on "manage attachments".

I think you own a 1997 SPX. Does it have a black bottom hull, white deck, yellow hood and black bumpers?

[darrylcom]

Re: 96' SPX Engine Siezed?

Using the attachment option at the bottom of the page when you post a new subject title, you can attach digital photos directly from your picture files on your computer. Click on "manage attachments".

I think you own a 1997 SPX. Does it have a black bottom hull, white deck, yellow hood and black bumpers?

Bill, you are correct. After looking at the tag on the back the last 2 numbers are 97. I suppose my value just went up some. lol, It has a yellow bottom, white deck and yellow hood, black bumpers.
I suppose my shop didn't know 96 from 97, and neither did I or the guy who sold it to me (I've had it for 4 years). Anyway, it seems to be running fine with the new starter except the back mounting bracket won't line up. The bolts on the starter are in the wrong place. I took the starter apart, and it has a place to move the mounting bolts, but they aren't threaded. Im just gonna drill 2 new holes in the bracket so that I can rotate it to the correct place. I winterized it today, and in the spring, I'll get to test it. Thanks again to everyone for the help, and now its on to that pesky 900 ZXI trim box...........Anyone have the whole assembly for sale, cable and all?