97 GTX will not start

[jscott]

Hi folks, first post.
Was running on Erie yesterday no problems. Shutdown for a little beach time and could not get it started afterward. Embarrasing tow home from a Honda.
It cranks for a few seconds then stops. It's almost like it wants to catch but doesn't. Get a little smoke out the back.
Put new plugs in.
Rotates by hand fine.
If I take the plugs out it spins freely and the starter does not drop out.
150/150 compression.
Fuses good.
Swapped the coil/solenoid with a working ski but still cranks for a few turns then cuts out.
Tried pouring alittle premix in the carbs but the best I got was a backfire.
If I hold the throttle full open and crank it, the starter does not cut out and it even fired once but did not run.
I had rebuilt the carbs about 2 weeks ago and changed all fuel lines, ran great after the rebuild.
Any new ideas would be appreciated.
Thanx

[dsolie]

Re: 97 GTX will not start

Whats the standing voltage on the battery? A weak battery, or a bad battery that cannot produce enough cranking amps will not be powerful enough to continually crank the ski with the plugs in.

[jscott]

Re: 97 GTX will not start

Sorry, forgot to mention that I fully charged the 1 yr old battery but still no start. Swapped the battery out for another fully charged battery with the same results. I have two of these skis. The other one starts fine with either battery. That's were I got the spare solenoid box to try.

It has been running and starting fine up to yesterday.

Thanx

[dsolie]

Re: 97 GTX will not start

You could have a failing ground.. Check the wire that goes form the neg post on the batt to the block. Those like to corrode from the inside out. Inspect carefully.

[leskos01]

Re: 97 GTX will not start

I had the same problem and the ground was the culprit, I also own two of these.

[jscott]

Re: 97 GTX will not start

OK, cleaned the negative lead connection at the starter. It was in good shape. Same problem still. It cranks really strongly for about a second, almost seems to fire once then stops cranking. Again, if I hold the throttle full open it keeps cranking much longer. It stops cranking when it tries to fire.
What cuts out the starter on these things? A speed sensor.

Something else I tried was to disconnect the fuel return line and hooked a piece of tube to the impulse port on the fuel pump. I was able to get the pump to push fuel out the return line. Don't know if that means it would be strong enough to supply the carbs. But even when I squirted some fuel into the carbs I couldn't get it to start.

Can I take a plug out and hold it against a ground to check for spark? Do I put the other plug wire on the grounding block while I do that?

thanx

[dsolie]

Re: 97 GTX will not start

It's not fuel or spark at this point (yet)... It's the supply of power to the starter that allows the motor to spin for as long as it takes to get the PWC to start.

You cleaned the ground, great! Did you peel back the covering and inspect for frayed or broken / rusty wires?

You should do the same for the positive wire to the starter.

The starter itself could also be a culprit in this mess.

[jscott]

Re: 97 GTX will not start

Ok, inspected both wires. Just to be sure I jumpered around each (one at a time). Same results except the engine did catch once after a longer crank period while I was jumpering the positive wire. Only happened once.

Does it sound like it may be the starter itself? I see starters on Ebay for about $75 new, has anyone had experience with these?

[dsolie]

Re: 97 GTX will not start

jump your solenoid..

As far as starter.. SBT or OEM only. SBT has a warranty, and OEM's are the best around for durability.

[jscott]

Re: 97 GTX will not start

Just an update.
I broke down and took it to a local mechanic. His diagnosis is the spark is weak and intermittant. He said the starter was ok and was kicking out when the engine tried to start on the intermittant spark. He said it was the stator and/or pick up coil.

Brought it home and removed the stator cover. A piece of metal fell out. Looks like a piece of bent wire about 3 inches long and brittle. Not apparent to me where it went but it wore a groove in the stator flywheel. Full circumference and about 1/16" deep.

Pulled starter to see if the part came from it. It does not appear so.

Ordered new stator and trigger coil. Ouch!
Not sure if I need to replace the stator flywheel?

3-5 days for parts.
Thanx for the input. I'll update for those interested in outcome.

[dsolie]

Re: 97 GTX will not start

Take a picture of the damage.

[jscott]

Re: 97 GTX will not start

Picts of damage
Hope this works, haven't tried attachments yet.

Any guesses on the piece of metal?

[jscott]

Re: 97 GTX will not start

After reading the shop manual more carefully (should have done this first), I don't think the mechanic I consulted is right. It appears that the magneto on the 787 is only for charging the battery and not directly part of the ignition system. The only component under the mag cover directly involved with ignition is the trigger coil. Resistance on that is 249 ohms. The manual calls for 190-300 so it should be ok. Is it possible that piece of metal floating around in the cover could have interfered with the spark?

[dsolie]

Re: 97 GTX will not start

How flexible is that wire? It looks like it could be one of the stator windings?

The piece of metal could have def messed with spark.. But, it also looks like that stator took a beating.. Is there any exposed parts of the stator not encapsulated, or any burnt areas??

worse comes to worse, you throw it back together and see what it does!

[jscott]

Re: 97 GTX will not start

The wire piece is very stiff. Definitely not copper. Magnetic.

Nothing burnt on stator. Resistance reading on windings are good. Less than 1 ohm winding-winding and infinite to ground on all windings.

Can I do a test start with the exhaust pipe off or loosely in place?